tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post1651093488721925828..comments2024-03-24T14:58:10.815-07:00Comments on Two Old Farts Talking Romance: Talking Sex With TeensLorihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09603287422043758944noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-88415582792355725832010-05-17T11:13:50.750-07:002010-05-17T11:13:50.750-07:00Thank you Lori. That is what I have been trying to...Thank you Lori. That is what I have been trying to say, although poorly.<br /><br />My beef has nothing to do with reading material (and given that I belong to a few anti-censorship and anti banned books groups...I am finding it amusing that people think this is the issue).Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07542837171000604181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-30485324696419769072010-05-17T10:36:37.941-07:002010-05-17T10:36:37.941-07:00KB, there would be an issue because the issue isn&...KB, there would be an issue because the issue isn't about what he reads, it's about having a teenager reviewing adult content on a website that is aimed for adults.<br /><br />I expect my child will read steamy books when she's a teen just as I did. And I intend to be like my parents and allow her to read what she chooses. I also intend when the time comes to have frank discussions with her about sex and safety.<br /><br />I am not comfortable or interested in having those conversations with any minor not my own. It's inappropriate. And putting John, or any teen out there, where adults can have an opening to start conversation of an inappropriate minor is shockingly wrong.<br /><br />I don't want to parent a child not my own and it's not my business to tell John or his parents what's right. I can only state that I think it's a mistake to allow him to post reviews on an adult content blog.<br /><br />It takes a village to raise a child, it's said, and I believe it takes a community to keep our children safe. I'm a part of that community.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09603287422043758944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-18206061621231216172010-05-17T09:09:25.251-07:002010-05-17T09:09:25.251-07:00I'd rather my children read steamy books than ...I'd rather my children read steamy books than watch X-Rated porn. I was reading some very steamy reads starting at 13 and I really don't have an issue with someone under the age of 18 reading erotica.<br /><br />Let me put it this way- if John had reviewed classic erotica such as Fanny Hill or Lady Chatterley’s Lover, would there be some issue then?KT Granthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15958121742156171756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-35455112619347940852010-05-16T13:24:12.675-07:002010-05-16T13:24:12.675-07:00Oh! *Lightbulb*
I'm currently reading a wo...Oh! *Lightbulb* <br /><br />I'm currently reading a wonderful YA novel for my personal blog, and it deals with the character using the internet in different ways, some of which are bad. It's a great novel to deal with the subject, and I was wondering if I could get you and/or Carolyn to guest post on internet safety for when I post my review Tuesday or Wednesday. It's an odd coincidence, but I'd love to see my reader's reactions! And most are in their teens/twenties and would probably benefit from it. :)John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-89962330967539152452010-05-16T13:07:26.584-07:002010-05-16T13:07:26.584-07:00T.V. - bah!!
Y'all ought to read a good book....T.V. - bah!!<br /><br />Y'all ought to read a good book. ;-)Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05151587271439513617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-81769763585102844012010-05-16T13:01:19.479-07:002010-05-16T13:01:19.479-07:00Wow, strong words Lori. Thank you very much. In ...Wow, strong words Lori. Thank you very much. In the end, I hope people understand that it was just a bunch of stumbling missteps, and I am working hard on making them right. <br /><br />Yes, it would make sense to have a teen reviewing teen books. :) There are some other blogs out there run by teens as well that do very well with it, but you can never have enough.<br /><br />And, if I may make a suggestion, we could always start a blog tour of sorts on internet safety. It's a strong issue, and we should really let bloggers and the blog readers know about information and how to be extra careful with it - or in getting it.<br /><br />Yay, a new post! That sounds like a wonderful idea. :) Though I prefer celebrity apprentice as opposed to survivor.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-58139758850489796422010-05-16T12:55:12.967-07:002010-05-16T12:55:12.967-07:00John, my admiration of you ratchets up another not...John, my admiration of you ratchets up another notch. I know that at your age I wouldn't have handled this with the aplomb that you have.<br /><br />I actually like the idea of reading YA reviews from someone for whom that market is targeted. <br /><br />I appreciate how everyone has agreed with the basic premise that when it comes to the internet, there can't be enough safeguards. Right now my daughter only is online to find game cheatcodes and to play on Poptropica. I'm scared of that moment when she realizes that there are communities out there she can share her world with. <br /><br />Now Carolyn is whispering in my ear that I promised another blog post about romance before sunday night rolls around and I get tethered to the Survivor season finale (please vote Russell off... please!!!)Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09603287422043758944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-11345298275389463792010-05-16T12:37:45.157-07:002010-05-16T12:37:45.157-07:00Oh my god! If I would have known...Wow. I'll...Oh my god! If I would have known...Wow. I'll let Jane know I'm going to cancel my account immediately. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is cause any legal issues! Dhympna, thank you for pointing this out to me. I'll let Jane know and we'll discuss this - thank you for your sound advice, and Jane, while not knowing, is a great person. She's just busy...But as to NetGalley's TOS, they should have the underage thing on their website's main page if their content isn't appropriate for all minors as well. So, this is major case of confusion and botched legalities. But thanks for bringing it to my attention again. <br /><br />Saranna, thank you very much. I just don't want this to be how people remember me. :/ I'll be sure not to stumble into any issues again - and I'll show more common sense. It's just a lot of stress to take, and I don't enjoy people expressing negative sentiments towards my reviewing/Jane/Dear Author when it was a murky field to begin with. My reviewing on DA will be self limited to Young Adult and regular romances, so there shouldn't be any more issues. I just hope no one makes any more issues.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-64420365848690421402010-05-16T12:28:23.385-07:002010-05-16T12:28:23.385-07:00@ John
Actually, according to NetGalley's TOS...@ John<br /><br />Actually, according to NetGalley's TOS you are in violation.<br /><br /><br />From NetGalley's TOS:<br /><br />5. Minors<br /><br />This Website is made available solely for adults eighteen (18) years of age or older. If you are under eighteen (18), please exit this Website immediately.<br /><br />Jane as a lawyer should have known this.Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07542837171000604181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-15808811915608741262010-05-16T12:25:36.513-07:002010-05-16T12:25:36.513-07:00John, I wish you the best of luck in your future a...John, I wish you the best of luck in your future as a reviewer. I don't think anyone is going to hold this against you. :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17774647553760700746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-85153531802839050852010-05-16T12:23:08.025-07:002010-05-16T12:23:08.025-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17774647553760700746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-19961092305429696412010-05-16T12:12:01.514-07:002010-05-16T12:12:01.514-07:00I'm sorry, I really am. What I am trying to i...I'm sorry, I really am. What I am trying to imply is that there will be nothing of the sort continuing. I know my arguing isn't very adult, but I try to get my point across as best I can. <br /><br />NetGalley actually would be the only one at fault then/Harlequin, as Jane never gave me the material herself. But either way, I meant the review wasn't sexually explicit. <br /><br />And I'm again, sorry for taking it personally, but I do, because we are talking about MY flub-up and MY future in reviewing. I really appreciate your stance on this, I do - but the waters are muddy, and personally, I just want to go in a corner and forget about everything.<br /><br />And again - if you have legal concerns, ask Jane at Dear Author. She knows more about this than I do - and I'm sure she checked things out beforehand - and if you want, ask her to take it off the website.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-37680872286586810472010-05-16T12:00:35.154-07:002010-05-16T12:00:35.154-07:00Frankly, I assume most 15-year-olds have found and...Frankly, I assume most 15-year-olds have found and read erotica because being curious about sex is part of being a teenager. I wouldn't consider them qualified to talk about the genre, though -- even if all they were reviewing was the non-erotic bits. <br /><br />(Have I missed something -- is <i>Lady Chatterly's Lover</i> now on 10th Grade English reading lists? Would anyone think it belongs there? But if it was there, no one would blame the kids who read it for that reason.)<br /><br />My only other comment is that there's absolutely no reason to take this personally. That's a main reason for statutory rape laws, namely it protects people (children) who can't protect themselves and shouldn't have to. It may not be fair, but it is internally consistent that legislatures decided what is and isn't legally appropriate for children don't ask children what <i>they</i> think.<br /><br />While there is no law against the publishing of erotica, and no law (that I know of) that prevents children from reading erotica, it's a matter of common sense that such books are written by adults, about adults, and for adults to read.<br /><br />There's a larger context here, one that deals with a wide range of issues: feminism, defense of the romance genre (which has been dismissed as "porn for women"), and the legitimate carve-outs in free speech laws intended to protect children. No one is expecting a 15-year-old from understanding the larger context, either.<br /><br />I appreciate that there's no winning an argument against a 15-year-old, so I won't even try. I think the other adults here get the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-66075981868166392562010-05-16T11:43:12.854-07:002010-05-16T11:43:12.854-07:00As former law enforcement, I have to say it's ...As former law enforcement, I have to say it's illegal. Providing sexually explicit material to an underaged person or a person who can't legally consent to recieve said materials is a crime punishable by prison time. It doesn't matter who chose what and I'm not saying she had deviant intentions, but it's AGAINST THE LAW. Period. <br /><br />And further, if I found an adult engaging in sexaully explicit conversations with my child, even if they were about books... well, again as former law enforcement, I know better than to finish that sentence on a public forum.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17774647553760700746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-50103672996483462472010-05-16T11:38:32.012-07:002010-05-16T11:38:32.012-07:00@John
Then a letter should be written to Netgalle...@John<br /><br />Then a letter should be written to Netgalley. <br /><br />Regardless, a minor should not be blogging on DA. And yes, it is an egregious offense that the owner allowed a minor to post a review about erotic romance.Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07542837171000604181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-26760257762351867222010-05-16T11:34:58.240-07:002010-05-16T11:34:58.240-07:00What Dhympna said, pretty much word for word.
Ha...What Dhympna said, pretty much word for word. <br /><br />Having a 15-year-old discuss erotic romance on a blog aimed at adults is inappropriate. I don't care how sexually knowledgeable teens are today. The age of consent is there for a reason, and if adults can't respect that, how can anyone expect teenagers to do so?Monkey Bear Reviewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17066203287877085289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-58391326221740721862010-05-16T11:30:22.579-07:002010-05-16T11:30:22.579-07:00And for everyone here - I just remembered that I u...And for everyone here - I just remembered that I used NetGalley for the ebook. NetGalley requires a user review for it to be valid, so I really didn't have a choice once the request went through. Thus there is a difference between requesting but never getting to the review for a physical copy due to other requests, and this website's policy. Just a warning out there in case any reviewers do decide to try it out.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-82118535231247026102010-05-16T11:30:01.374-07:002010-05-16T11:30:01.374-07:00John,
No one was calling anyone names. Frankly mi...John,<br /><br />No one was calling anyone names. Frankly minors have no business reviewing on a blog site (and I am very familiar with DA thank you) that also reviews erotica.<br /><br />As well, the excuse that Jane offered that it was not labelled erotica is flimsy. It clearly says Spice on the cover. It is the blog owner's responsibility to the publishers/the readers/contributers to ensure that books are dispersed in an appropriate manner. <br /><br />I am not saying a blogger has to be a specific age, what I am saying is that blog does indeed deal with adult content in many of its reviews. I have no problem with kids reading what they want to read as long as their parents are comfortable, I have a problem with a kid posting and conversing with adults in a forum that also discusses sexual content. <br /><br />You are a very smart kid, but as a minor the culpability lies completely on the owner of the blog.Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07542837171000604181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-81001670817787436632010-05-16T11:17:45.418-07:002010-05-16T11:17:45.418-07:00Now guys, I would please like you to refrain from ...Now guys, I would please like you to refrain from name calling. Dear Author is a respected blog, and Jane and I had no reservations about this - and she has been running it for many years, so I'm sure her knowledge on the legal ramifications is better than any of ours. There is nothing illegal about a minor reading a book with sexual content, as a book with sexual content is protected under the rights to free speech unless there is content within it deemed illegal like child pornography.<br /><br />I cannot continue stating this, because frankly, your ignorance of the complete situation is not helping matters. I am not reviewing erotica any more - and the accidental point is not the only reason why. I'm not yelling in the streets, saying that I read this every day, and I most certainly told people THIS IS NOT A GENRE I READ in the review.<br /><br />Now, as for age matters - I'm sorry, but a blogger does not have to be a specific age. That's just nit-picking, and frankly, it's pretty darn offensive. I'm old enough to review books on any website, and that is understood. I made no means to hide my age, and a majority of people are totally fine with it and have praised me for being of my age and not only respecting the romance genre as a whole, but writing reviews that reflect that same respect.<br /><br />The site's REVIEW CONTENT is in no way illegal or considered in itself erotica. I'm sorry, but a review is not a sexual thing by any means, and that should be understood. The question deemed by Lori, which I assumed you understood was worked out - was my reading of said material and allowing a commented discussion to go based on said review of the material, because said discussion involved the topic of sex. In this, Jane did everything correct by explaining her piece as I did mine, and moved the topic to a different thread for people so no one would have to be uncomfortable. <br /><br />As to statutory rape and such, while I understand why you bring up the argument, you're confusing things here with reading and reviewing, and that's not exactly helping. <br /><br />Ultimately, there is nothing legally wrong with it, and while ethically you have a right to an opinion - I need you to understand that I do hear what you're saying, and I have taken action based on it. Also, I can understand what you're saying, and you're only making this worse by continuing to confuse the situation. I am the one who has to deal with the consequences, not Jane, and I am doing as such. <br /><br />Also, thank you Lori and Carolyn for being understanding in your own extents as to why I am doing this - and again, I think I've made it clear that this is no longer an issue with either me or Jane.<br /><br />And, again, I've made it clear I don't want to be known as 'that kid that reads erotica' but you need to let it go or your only making my position harder, and you're only feeding your own argument instead of helping the overall event.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-30851250186666375732010-05-16T10:55:01.054-07:002010-05-16T10:55:01.054-07:00John may be the most mature 15-year-old in the wor...John may be the most mature 15-year-old in the world, but he's too young to have sex. That's not me (I personally don't care, and as I have no children, I'm really not qualified to comment on anyone else or anyone else's children,), that's the law.<br /><br />There's a concept in the law: "strict liability," which means that regardless of the ignorance, excuse, etc., of the person who committed the crime, he or she is guilty. Not all crimes have strict liability, but statutory rape does. If a couple bridge their state's age limit for sex, so that one is underage by a day and the other is legal by a day: it's still statutory rape. Hey, I didn't write the law.<br /><br />Now, of course no one has suggested that John's reading & reviewing erotica is anything even remotely the same as having sex. But 15 is underage in most states, if not all, for having sex. (Based on <a href="http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/08/sr/statelaws/summary.shtml" rel="nofollow">this list</a>, 16 is the youngest legal age in the US.) So what we're all talking about is someone who's not legally supposed to have sex reading & publicly reviewing a book with sexy bits. Explicitly and intentionally sexy bits.<br /><br />And that's where I think the line is, based on Lori's original post. John himself may be mature beyond his years, but that wouldn't be a defense if someone older than his state's statutory rape law's age limit were to have sex with John. As far as that state's legislature is concerned, a young 15 is the same as a normal 15 is the same as a very mature 15.<br /><br />Reading erotica is, of course, not against the law. But public sentiment may well be that 15-year-olds should not be reading erotica. Which is why 15-year-olds sneak their parents' erotica. (Like, duh.)<br /><br />I have no personal opinion about John and his actions. But as a general matter, I think Lori's reactions were exactly on the money: There's a good reason why 15 is too young to be <i>known</i> to be reading erotica. Read it in private, pass it around to your friends, giggle (and other verbs) over it, but don't let adults know.<br /><br />That was a good rule of thumb when I was a "mature for her age" 15-year-old, and I think it's still a good rule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-40280715099301875512010-05-16T09:53:27.239-07:002010-05-16T09:53:27.239-07:00It is wildly inappropriate to have a minor reviewi...It is wildly inappropriate to have a minor reviewing YA (never mind the erotic romance review...and that IS the blog owner's fault)on a site that also reviews erotica.<br /><br />I wonder about the legalities and if the publishers are aware that their ARCs are being given to a minor. Because he is a minor the blog owner is at fault for even letting him post there and allowing him to review that book.<br /><br />The readers of that blog, I think, have the expectation that the contributors are adults and not minors.<br /><br />This situation has me completely disgusted.Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07542837171000604181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-16878282501964191722010-05-16T01:31:43.459-07:002010-05-16T01:31:43.459-07:00I declare this discussion a draw; you both make va...I declare this discussion a draw; you both make valid points, especially at 3:00 in the morning. Yes - insomnia time again. :-(<br /><br />As to trying Lori's writing, she's thinking of putting up a sample page, because, as you know published authors must PROMOTE! And how better than with excerpts and short stories? Assuming someone is reading them, lol.<br /><br />Yes indeedy - we may have trout swimming to the sea here in ... er... Fartland (sorry about that).<br /><br />I think I should go back to bed ...Carolynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05151587271439513617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-64243813146511330942010-05-15T20:00:30.558-07:002010-05-15T20:00:30.558-07:00Well, sometimes I doubt, but thank you none the le...Well, sometimes I doubt, but thank you none the less. I take no praise lightly, and coming from someone who I apparently have many issues with - well, it's pretty great! I want you to know that you shouldn't knock yourself as a reviewer, either. While I haven't tried your writing (and from what you mentioned online, you probably wouldn't want me too) I think your reviews are very well done, and come across as very thoughtful.<br /><br />I guess I have to agree with that! I always love a heated discussion or three - even if it riles me up. We have the same goal, and that's what is most important.<br /><br />Carolyn does seem more reasonable - not to be rude - in terms of seeing both sides, which is admirable of her, though your stubborn nature is just as admirable in a different way.<br /><br />I'm glad to know I've gotten you thinking, which is always a good thing to do. Never be less avid about it, please! It's better to be over zealous and need a dimming down as opposed to not being zealous enough. :) And yes, it's always good to go to the blog owner, though at this stage it's probably a moot point. <br /><br />My Saturday was strange - not the Saturday I planned - but it gave me some thought, and I'm glad it ended on a good note. :) I'll be following your blog, and hopefully between here and DA we can find some common literary ground and channel our discussion! It was quite a good one.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-1627407199267576592010-05-15T19:45:23.233-07:002010-05-15T19:45:23.233-07:00John, you are a reasonable and smart young man and...John, you are a reasonable and smart young man and I hope you know how exceptional you are.<br /><br />I'm going to hope that we'll both enjoy a long time taking about reading many genes. and I personally always thrive on a little disagreement.<br /><br />You will find Carolyn much more reasonable than I am. It's why we work so well together. I fly off the handle and she usually turns down the flame.<br /><br />You've given me a lot to think about and I thank you. I will never be less avid regarding internet safety and next time will think to approach the blog owner first with my concerns.<br /><br />Hope we didn't ruin your Saturday.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09603287422043758944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6662316995305232662.post-42655962893568925802010-05-15T19:32:04.448-07:002010-05-15T19:32:04.448-07:00And let me say if you are really that uncomfortabl...And let me say if you are really that uncomfortable with the review - which you seem to be - then email Jane and ask her to take it off or disable commenting of some sort. <br /><br />What hurts me most is that you are upset about this - I never meant in any way to offend you or bring up bad thoughts - and I wouldn't be offended if you asked her to do this. But I'd also make it clear that its out of safety concern, because the discussion of sex is very opinionated, and that would warrant a mere 'then don't participate in the discussion'. However, because I will be reviewing romances, I cannot avoid sex on the fact that sex is in all of the romances, and while I will not go into detail (not that I ever do) I cannot ignore it because it just isn't fair to the review readers or the author. But I will avoid any overly sexual discussions online, which I tend to do anyway. Your overwhelming opinion on this is admirable, but I'm not going to change my review policy based on it, because my opinions do differ, and while I hate making other people feel uncomfortable, I don't encourage any sexual discussion, and it's out of my hands if it occurs due to a review. <br /><br />Thanks for your time and concern. Despite the major frustration, I get where you're coming from, and I hope that at some point we can talk about (chaste) romances and the general love of the genre.John The Bookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726970893781715376noreply@blogger.com